The Gretsch Pages: Discussions: Other Guitars: Getting the most of a mediocre acoustic guitar

Getting the most of a mediocre acoustic guitar

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- Rated: 15 ↑
Nov 14, 2008 6:31 p.m. Playboy:

So with a mediocre electric guitar there are too many mods to list that you can do to improve tone. Change the pick ups and there you are and on and on it goes...

What are some options for getting a better sound out of a mediocre acoustic?

I have a Breedlove acoustic that just isn't quite there. When I play alone I think it sounds fine, but once I bring in some other acoustic stringed instruments the mojo fades quickly. I usually play with 1 or 2 other guitar players (one who has a great sounding early 60's Guild that is a monster), a mandolin, upright bass and sometimes a dobro and harmonica player. Once the Breedlove comes out in the group setting it sounds very bright, trebely (tin can sounding). The balance between bass and treble is poor, with the treble over powering the bass. When I play solo I can control the balance in my attack, but the guitar also doesn't project much volume, so I really have to dig in in a group setting and therefore get an overpowering treble.

I guess my question is, how can I get better balance between bass and treble? Should I get some really fat bass strings and use really light gauge on the treble?

Is there anyway to get more volume out of an acoustic besides heavy gauge strings? I usually run 13's.

I know I should just sell the guitar, but it has no resale value and it would be a hard sell in Mexico the land of classical nylon string fiddles. Besides I don't have money for an upgrade and would rather buy a DSW anyway. I knew I should have bought the Epi Masterbuilt. Smurfing acoustics!
- Rated: 25 ↑
Nov 14, 2008 7:33 p.m. Parabar:

With an acoustic, about the only variables you can change that affect the sound are the nut, bridge and strings. If the nut and/or bridge are plastic, replacing them with bone should warm up the sound a bit. Using the best quality strings you can find will help, and some strings tend more toward trebly or bassy. Boosting the gauge of bass strings significantly could create uneven tension on the neck, and if it's not real well-made, over time that could cause twisting. Only you can decide if the cost of those mods vs the cost of this guitar are worth it.

If it was me, and it really has no resale value, I'd live with it until I could afford something better, then either trade it for some other piece of gear or pass it on to a young student starting out.
- Rated: 7 ↑
Nov 14, 2008 8:08 p.m. fauves:

I would try a few kinds of strings, not just heavier. try nickel wound also not just bronze. I have a gypsy jazz guitar that is louder than my martin and I use 10's on it so heavier aint always louder on a acoustic in my opinion. Gibson makes a L5 wound nickel string that I have used on flat tops that have a really good drive and balance.
- Rated: 19 ↑
Nov 14, 2008 8:15 p.m. Gretschington:

Playboy said: Once the Breedlove comes out in the group setting it sounds very bright, trebely (tin can sounding). The balance between bass and treble is poor, with the treble over powering the bass.

I'm going to take a guess that it has a laminate top with a fairly heavy finish. Am I right?
- Rated: 15 ↑
Nov 14, 2008 8:44 p.m. Playboy:

No, it has a solid Sitka spruce top, solid rosewood back, but it does have laminated sides. I guess the finish is fairly heavy.

I am going to check in to those Gibson L5 nickel strings as soon as I find somebody who can bring them down to me. Fauves what strings do you use on the gypsy jazz guitar?

The guitar has a JLD Bridge Truss system and it seems to take up a lot of space inside the guitar which in my uneducated opinion would be better used for bouncing out some sound.

Now that the rainy season is over and it is starting to get drier the guitar seems to have a bit more volume. During the rainy season it sounds like a wet log strung with rubber bands.

The playability of the guitar is fantastic and it has great action. It really plays like an electric. The truth is I only use it about once a week when I play with the guys. With a Gretsch and a Tele in the house, why would a guy play anything else?

As Parabar said I will just live with it 'til I can afford something else and keep it as a campfire guitar and then pass it down to my son if he decides to play. An acoustic is a ways down on the Guitar Wishbook list - I need more money and less GAS. I think it is a very good guitar, I just want to try and get maxium performance out of it.

What brand and gauge strings are you guys running on your acoustics?
- Rated: 47 ↑
Nov 14, 2008 9:37 p.m. Timthom62:

D'Addario EJ15 (.010-.047) on the dreadnoughts and John Pearse #600L (.012-.053) on the jumbos. Both are phosphor bronze sets and might be a bit bright for what you're looking for, but I've found the John Pearse to be a bit darker than most of the other maker's equivalents for that diameter.

As Parabar noted, changing the nut and bridge saddle, (as well as the strings), are about the only ways to really change the sound of an acoustic. A lot of people feel that changing the bridge pins makes a difference, but that's never really worked for me.
- Rated: 7 ↑
Nov 14, 2008 9:51 p.m. fauves:

I use the gitane strings on the gypsy jazzer but they are waay toooo skinny for a dread.

on my dread I go between martin sp's, sound great but I only get 2 shows out of em.

or the d'addario flat tops are nice also, but I only get one show out of em until they start snappin!

on the archtops I use the L5 strings on one and just started to use the elixer nanoweb on my main stage guitar. great feel, good sound and I havent broken one yet.

however I am playin rhythum only on the acoustics so I am lookin for more mids less brassy jangle, Heavy heavy picks drivin hard. If your doin fingerstyle you might want to follow other advice.

Are you talkin about acoustic or pluged in acoustic?
- Rated: 41 ↑
Nov 14, 2008 10:32 p.m. dubkitty:

changing the bridge pins particularly helps if the original pins are plastic. in general, wood pins make the sound darker; bone seems fairly neutral; buffalo horn makes the guitar louder and a bit brighter. try buffalo horn pins and see if they don't help.

the other thing is, just hang out with it for a couple of years. a lot of new acoustics, especially ones which are built fairly heavy like Martins and Guilds, take a good while to open up.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Nov 14, 2008 10:38 p.m. Wishinfora(nother)Falcon:

Elixer Nanowebs will warm it up. They make a Bluegrass light (I think) that has heavier Bass and lighter treble strings. They're pricey but they last forever. If you only play it once a week, plan on your strings lasting a year or more.

If you are really brave, you could try shaving some of that truss system. If it were mine I'd take the Sawzall to it. All that bracing in an acoustic instrument is pretty retarded.

Try different picks too (gauges and material)
- Rated: 16 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 3:14 a.m. Gigatron:

Playboy, do you use a thumbpick? I just recently started using one (after viewing this clip), and it really boosts the volume and clarity of the bass.
- Rated: 56 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 8:39 a.m. otterbean:

I would check the bridge to see if the saddle is truly flat on the bottom or that the slot for the bridge is flat in the bottom as well. You can loose a lot of tone in that spot. The energy from the strings is transfered to the body there. Its a really important part of an acoustic guitar's tone.

Pull out your bridge saddle and take a peek inside. Sometimes a little sawdust can be in the slot. Sometimes it simply isn't as flat as it needs to be.

If this part of the guitar is spot on, you know that you are transferring as much energy from the strings to the body of the guitar as you possibly can.

As mentioned by Gretschington, there could be a finish that is too thick on this guitar. I don't know what is causing your gutiar to play so softly. You shouldn't have to dig in to compensate for the volume of the other guys in the band. Maybe its time to amplify your sound a touch so you don't have to change your playing style.

Are you really having a volume loss, or are you just unable to hear yourself playing? I would bet that the other guys can hear you all too well. Ever try gathering up all of the instrument players in the group around a single microphone and recording it just to see how it sounds? Might give you a better since of where you sit in the mix.
- Rated: 15 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 9:27 a.m. Playboy:

Otterbean +2 for the avatar! Any ideas on how I can check if the bottom of the saddle fits flat on the bottom? I mean once it is in I can't see inside. I know the saddle itself is flat.

The guys I jam with are kind of acoustic snobs and not big on amplification. We don't play out, just on the back porch. Once in a while I break out an electric and they tolerate me for half a dozen songs, but I have to kinda stick to bass lines and little fills.

I do have a hard time hearing myself play and sometimes the other guys have a hard time hearing me play. If somebody else plays my guitar I usually have a hard time hearing it. The guild and the mando are pretty loud they both have a great bark. No doubt my fiddle is the weakest link - but not my chops!

I agree with Wishin, all that truss system bracing is retarded. I am going to check into those Nanowebs.

I am going to look into changing the nut to bone. It might be hard to find somebody here who can do it.

The guitar is only two years old and I am hoping it will sound better with time and settle in.

Thanks for all the info guys. You can polish a turd...
- Rated: 7 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 10:13 a.m. fauves:

Yeah I was smitten with Otterbeans avatar also. And he brought up a great point about the bridge. I put a graphtech bridge on my dread to help with strings poppin. I thought it helped with vol a little. if your usin a flatpick the pick thickness will have a HUGE difference in volume.

the wegen picks that are made for the gypsy jazz stuff will raise your volume by a ful1 1/3 http://www.wegenpicks.com/

expensive, hand made, and will last until you loose it. alot of the swing/western swing guys use em also. 2.0 to 3.5mm thick

the dunlop big stubbys are good 1.0mm I did a lot of research on Freddie Green, Django and the pre bop/pre amp acoustic rhythm players and a lot of the early guys used buttons filed down or bone and horn picks

not only do they increase vol it takes less effort to get a good volume. you can drive more with the wrist and less with your arm.

the band that I am in goes from rockabilly to Western swing to gypsy jazz in the same set. We also have a fiddle player and sometimes a trumpet to compete with.sometimes we do acoustic with just lead guitar thru a amp. Until you are in the acoustic rhythm slot you dont realize how much work it takes to do it right. if you have a fiddle player like you said your most likely swingin some stuff. To swing or not is up to no one but the RHYTHM guitar player!
- Rated: 30 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 10:28 a.m. JazzBoxJunky:

Alot of the Breedloves were fitted with THIS , it's my experience that this is fitted to make the bracing lighter, and thus you end up with a very nice complex sound, however it is not very loud and it tends to be quite dark. I think this type of design would record well, but you would get lost in a jam of any kind. Plus one for the Gypsy style guitars if you are looking for volume, cut, and good price as well as tone.
- Rated: 56 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 11:27 a.m. otterbean:

You have to check the bottom of the slot. Do you have micrometer calipers? You can do an easy inspection with a hand held light once you pull the bone saddle.

Another way to check the slot is to use a piece of card stock cut into a thin strip. Place it in the slot and place a pencil mark on the card where the wood from the bridge tops out on the card. Slide the card left and right and see if the pencil line dips below or rises above the wood on the bridge.

Thanks for the compliments on the avatar. Thats my new virtual girlfriend, April Rose.

I saw her on the television last night. She is the Nightie Watchman on WGNs Movie Underground program. She has good taste in gutiars obviously.
- Rated: 19 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 11:51 a.m. Jet-Head:

These are all very good suggestions.

Don't underestimate the value of a good pick. I like the 1.5 mm D'Andrea Pro Plecs. Also, experiment with your attack. Often you can find a sweet spot for where the pick strikes the strings. Start at the bottom (nearest the bridge) of the sound hole and move around from there. Notice how the tone changes nearer the bridge (more treble) and nearer the neck.

Finally, on my less expensive acoustics I've been using Tusq bridge pins. On my more expensive guitars I use ebony but to my ears the Tusqs do make a difference on the lesser ones. I've had several smart people tell me that the Tusq pins make no difference because after the strings break over the saddle, there can no longer be an effect on the strings. To my ears they make a big difference not so much to the strings but to the top. Maybe I was eager to rationalize my foregone $20 but I don't think so.
- Rated: 19 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 12:25 p.m. Gretschington:

Playboy said: I am going to look into changing the nut to bone. It might be hard to find somebody here who can do it
That will only affect the sound of the open strings. I think you're left with strings and bridge saddle to do whatever sound shaping you can to it acoustically. I'm not familiar with that brand but the sypmtoms sounded like it was a problem with the top. It's not uncommon for laminated tops with a heavy finish to fit your description. Makes 'em sound kind of anemic. Overbracing can do that, too.

Does that guitar sound OK amplified? If it does, then plug in and subtlely boost it just enough to fit in with the mix of the snobs so that you can all be heard evenly... or tell them to chip in and buy you a new guitar worthy of them.

What kind of friends would make you flog your guitar and then mock that it can't keep up? Plug in and really blast 'em good one time.
- Rated: 15 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 5:22 p.m. Playboy:

Jazz Box is correct. The guitar records very nice especially finger picking with a thumb pick, it just washes out in a jam session. As I said, when I play alone around the house I really like the guitar. Breedlove's sound is almost piano like. It just doesn't have the right voice for the jam session.

Fauves I'd love to hear your group play. We play a similiar kind of thing. It is not uncommon for us to go Rockabilly>Gypsy Jazz>Western Swing>Bluegrass. We are trying to find some Mariachi cats to add a fiddle and trumpet for a bit of Spag Western sound as well. Our lead guitar play is hot and he has turned me onto more Swing and Gypsy Jazz than I could learn in a lifetime.

Thanks for all the input everybody. I like Gretschingtons idea about having them chip in to buy me a guitar worthy of them. Anybody here want to chip in? It's really important we all help keep roots music alive in Mexico. Hey Joe C, how about sending a Rancher south of the border? GDP Mexican Roundup in '09!
- Rated: 19 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 7:50 p.m. Jet-Head:

BTW, I had a Breedlove guitar. It was a very good guitar for fingerpicking but I have to say I could never get the sound I was looking for with a plectrum.

It had a bone nut and saddle and this particular guitar was pinless. Solid woods throughout. Meticulously finished. Stirring bass response.

But I never warmed to it. The mids and highs were...lacking somehow.

It was also a very quiet instrument.

It became a very one-dimensional guitar for me. Open tunings, finger picked.

After 10 years I sold it to a local GC for cash and a slotted cedar/rosewood AJ Epi Masterbilt.

In my opinion, I got the better guitar if not all of the market value.
- Rated: 11 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 8:34 p.m. bigsbyslur:

Dang, I had a chain of thought going until "April Rose" showed up. Pretty hard to stay interested in Playboy's old accoustic guitar. Anyway, good luck with your guitar, Playboy.
- Rated: 15 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 8:36 p.m. Bob Wire:

Brass bridge pins made a pretty significant difference for me. I like things a bit more toward the high end than the average bear, and the brass pins seemed to help the tone cut through the mix. Also just added a bone nut and saddle, which kind of mellowed out that crisp tone a bit, gave it more warmth.
- Rated: 8 ↑
Nov 15, 2008 9:17 p.m. Whofan:

I am just now changing the strings on my Cort MR780FX. I bought the new Ernie Ball Slinky Acoustic 'Coated Titanium' medium lights (12 - 54). They better be good, for $24.00!
- Rated: 15 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 9:58 a.m. Playboy:

Yeah, what jethead said! When I bought this guitar I narrowed it down between the Breedlove and an Epi Masterbuilt (which was less expensive)and I pulled the trigger on the Breedlove. I think about that Epi everytime I dig into my first solo of the night with the guys on the backporch. Jethead I had no idea Breedlove had been around so long?
- Rated: 19 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 10:16 a.m. Jet-Head:

Yeah, PB. I bought mine when they were niche builders, 1997 as I recall. They were pretty expensive back then, too. My model was around $3,000 back then!

I usually don't look back with regret on my guitar purchases but that was a lot of dough for a guitar I ended up not using much. I was originally intoxicated by that deep-deep bass response. I had never (and have not since) heard an acoustic guitar get ALL of the lows like that guitar did. But as I said, it was pretty one-dimensional for me and my style of playing.

That said, I'm not trying to diss your axe and I'd try all of the tricks noted above to incorporate its unique voice into your style.

I've got a couple of those Epi MBs. Great guitars for the money.
- Rated: 15 ↑
Nov 16, 2008 10:25 a.m. Playboy:

I was also intoxicated by that deep bass response which was why I picked it over the Epi MB. As mentioned I think it is a really nice guitar but a one trick pony for sure. How about some pix of the Epi's? I might be able to swing one come xmas.