Deke said: Walter, that's interesting. Do you find the recurve a key ingredient in the mojo of an archtop?It was more a case of "why does this thing sound suspiciously like a flattop?!?", and noticing the top wasn't all that arched.
I might be full of crap, nothing scientific or proven about my observation. Just looking for clues as to why this thing sounds the way it does.
Korean guitars are NOT crap! They're mediocre. They make great furniture or wall hangings. The dangerous thing about Korean guitars is that they're just good enough that you can get suckered into thinking they'd be good with just a little tweaking. Unfortunately, the more work you put into them, the more obvious their shortcomings become. Just accept them for what they are, lower your expectations, and have fun with them. BZ
well, BillyZoom, since you've made a blanket statement, I'll make one too. You're wrong.
There's plenty of mediocre or even bad asian guitars out there. And there's plenty of really good and outstanding ones. These "really good ones and outstanding ones" are cheaper than the ones in my next paragraph.
There's also getting to be more and more mediocre american guitars. and they're getting more expensive. You pay $1K-$2K and the thing still needs better pickups :D
There's really nothing "magic" about "MIA". There used to be great guitars made here (also cars), but then back in the day who else made guitars (or cars)?
Nothing that they couldn't reverse-engineer and improve upon in asia.
it's just a shame that things can be invented here, but then greed gets the best of the company and they run out of imagination to innovate. All they can do is ride the "reissues". Or they can outsource some cheap bolt-ons and write "Les Paul" or "Fender" on them and sell them to the Guitar Hero herd.
sorry, had to vent. 
Gear Junky, it's great that you're so happy with your Rondo archtop, and I'm sure that with a little setup work, it can be made to play and sound pretty good. It's amazing how little money will buy you a semi-decent guitar these days.
But have you had it up against what it's inspired by, have a lot of experience with different similar size archtops, gigged with it with different amps, recorded with it, played it in different musical settings, piped through a P.A. with the bass bins on stage, stood next to a drummer with it, traveled with it in different climates, etc...?
GearJunky, you mention Asian guitars - 35 years ago, some of the guitars coming out of Japan were highly questionable too. I think Yamaha started to buck the trend, didn't they? But up until then...
Nowadays, Japanese guitars have rightfully earned a great deal of respect - the term 'Jap crap' no longer applies, in my book.
The whole ethos behind guitas made in Korea and China is slightly different than for those made in Japan, isn't it? From what I can see, the Chinese/Korean pieces are built to a budget deliberately (with one or two notable exceptions), whereas the Japanese guitars from the mid 70s were built to achieve quality whilst maintaining value for money. For example, take an Ibanez Roadster or Artist guitar - they were actually quite good, and the current crop of Chinese strats doesn't even come close, imho. Ok, there were exceptions here too - such as Japanese Kays and so on.
Give it a few years though, and it might be different, but right now I'd gladly pay the money for a US or Japanese guitar. And the Japanese one, I'd buy unseen - exactly like I did with my Gretsch. But I would still have to think very carefully about a Korean or Chinese guitar, just because of the extra work or money I'd have to invest in it.
You might want to consider youreself quite lucky as it is though (assuming you're Stateside, that is!) - traditionally, in the UK, all you have to do to get the retail price is substitute the '£' for the '$' sign - which would make my Jet cost about $2750 at today's exchange rates...
GearJunky:
The title of the thread is "Korean guitars are crap", and I'm the one making a blanket statement? I thought I was defending the Koreans. BTW, don't make blanket statements about Asian guitars. The Japanese make the best guitars in the World.
BZ
I agree that "made in the USA" ain't what it used to mean. For instance, I bought a new American Standard Tele a few months ago. Build quality was definitely worse than my KOREAN made G-5122. And on the electrics, while Fender used better quality Pots and switches, the wiring was a dog's breakfast of bad soldering and connections. The input jack was loose from day one.
My tech and I rewired the Tele completely, had to shield it, etc.
Every Gretsch 51XX I've looked at, including my own, has had a great finish, and neat electrical work (although using low-cost parts).
A few years back (2002/3), however, I bought a Korean made Sparklejet - don't remember the model number - which was very badly made. I kept it for 3 days, took it back to the dealer when the wood around the input jack started disintegrating.
The Koreans have come a long way in a short time, imo.
It never was "what it used to be". I remember playing some Gibson SGs in the 1960s and not liking them at all. I also remember owning a 1980s Squier strat that was as good as any Fender I ever played. I also remember owning the worst amplifier ever made (early 1970s solid state Fender Bassman). Here's an interview with David Grissom where he says some of the best instruments ever made are being made today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnXOiILg2xU
I'm inclined to agree.
Who cares? If YOU like it, then it is a great guitar. YOU are the only person YOU have to please.
Walter eloquently stated, "It's amazing how little money will buy you a semi-decent guitar these days.
But have you had it up against what it's inspired by, have a lot of experience with different similar size archtops, gigged with it with different amps, recorded with it, played it in different musical settings, piped through a P.A. with the bass bins on stage, stood next to a drummer with it, traveled with it in different climates, etc...?"
I have no doubt my favorite Korean guitars would perform as well as the more expensive professional quality guitars... but I don't know that for sure and maybe Walter is correct.
However, I do not gig anymore and play for my own enjoyment in my den/studio so what I have suits me perfectly.
I do know this however, my Korean ES5 clone is a lot better guitar than my actual ES5 was. Now maybe my ES5 was just a lousy one, it happens, but the clone I have now, substantially modified, is truly a better sounding, better playing instrument of impeccable quality. Maybe I just got lucky with it, I don't know.
The bottom line is if you're happy with what you have, that is all that counts.
well, didn't mean to offend anyone, i was being half-humorous, as is the title of this thread (the OP actually says how much he likes his guitars).
have i recorded or gigged in different climates, of course not. you don't need to to pick out a good guitar, espeically if you don't need it to record or travel.
i did A/B an SX (Rondo) bass against a current MIA fender. Those 2 basses were of identical quality (doesn't mean all SX are). You charge me $1500 for a bass like that and I say "meh". You charge me under $200 with a hard case and I say "wow".
I have a chinese Brownsville solid-top acoustic (dreadnaught) that I like better than some Taylors and Gibsons I've played at the store. No, they're not all nice like that, but this one is. Will it improve with age and last 40 years? No, because as soon as it needs a fret job (or getting close) i'll sell it on craigslist and buy me a new one for less money than the fret job
same goes for my 2 electrics - excellent guitars with truly nice tone (unplugged), wonderful tone plugged-in (GFS pickups, again, asian). But come time for fret job in a few years - i'll salvage the parts and buy something new.
it's all about "exceptions", though, what i'm saying: these days you can (easily) find a truly great asian (current) guitar, even chinese. just not stock - you'll have to mod. but you kinda have to mod the current MIA stuff ANYWAY.
Are all of the famous vintage MIA guitars played by famous people - are they the norm or the exceptions from the 50's/60's? Are all of those collectible PAF's and Filtertrons really consistently good pickups? Nope.
Are Swiss watches better than $15 Kmart quartz watch. Sure. But who today needs 'em?
Would I want a cool old shiny Gretsch? Absolutely! But can I spend the thousands for it? Nope. Even if I could I wouldn't - because once you ding it or crack it or "underhumidify" it - it's a nighmare. I ain't jealous, honestly, I just don't need them in my circumstances. But I'm not stopping anyone - enjoy what you can afford. Just don't think that you're all that. 
I've got a peerless wizard (korea) on the way. I think the idea to build a es-5 (slitely thinner) is a pretty cool concept. (Not a crappy idea) Hopeing that the good things I've heard about build quality are true.
The Korean ES5 clone I mention a couple postings above this, "I do know this however, my Korean ES5 clone is a lot better guitar than my actual ES5 was. Now maybe my ES5 was just a lousy one, it happens, but the clone I have now, substantially modified, is truly a better sounding, better playing instrument of impeccable quality. Maybe I just got lucky with it, I don't know. is made by Peerless under the Carlo Robelli brand name and it is a spectacular guitar.
I've got two Korean guitars - one is an Eastwood Airline Town & Country; the other is a Tanglewood TW39 semi-acoustic. The Eastwood is well, okay. It doesn't light my fire, doesn't inspire me to play. It has a nice neck and good action but the hardware and electronics are extremely shoddy. Also, the pups, while scorching hot are still quite generic sounding - played clean they're extremely dull without any character whatsoever.
The Tanglewood, on the other hand, is absolutely wonderful although the TW39 was on the higher end of the Tanglewood line (it has been discontinued for a few years now.) I've played Martins that while good, weren't as good as my TW39. Indeed, I played a few of those new budget maple-necked Martins a couple of weeks ago and they were all absolute rubbish - firewood. I've played a lot of American-made guitars that were awful, although played some that were staggeringly good. I think quality varies all over the place.
DangerousMan, what prevents you from replacing pickups? In my mind "guitar" and "pickups" are always separate entities. Just like amps. Technically, amp is part of our instrument's voice ("electric guitar"), but we don't just judge guitars based on one amp. change those puppies, be happy. light your fire.
Hey Bear...That Blue Tele ROCKS...I'm taking some sandpaper and sharp old rusty tools to one of my Teles and making it look a little more worn than it should be...Kind of fun when you get into it...I've never really liked the looks of New Guitars...Guess i'm old school and used to old guitars from playing back in the 60's..Take care, sassy
Yeah, you're right Gearjunky but I was just giving an honest appraisal of the guitar as it is; it could have been better and the pups could have been much better. Sure I could take out the stock pups but that wouldn't change their quality which is the problem in the first place. They'll still be dull whether they're in the guitar or not. But maybe I should change them... 
Thanks Sassy. I've had it for about 9 years. I changed a lot of stuff on it and it really plays good.
I changed the pickups in my Robelli. The Korean P90s were pretty lousy. Hot and very middy but the guitar itself was a gem.
well, not to argue with you, man, but without decent pickups you can't even judge a guitar's tonal quality (not even an archtop "acoustic-electric").
pickups "read" the guitar's tone, they "pick it up". bad muddy pickups or dull-sounding generic ceramics are like hazy glasses or cheap plastic safety goggles. you can't really judge a landscape without having a clear view. IME.
Hey, Sassy, PM sent...
I don't think there's any one factor which reliably predicts good vs. not-quite-as-good in guitars. My longtime number one guit is a '61 strat. It's a sweety all right. My neighbor has a mint '66, worth more by far then my beat example with finish stripped off. His is blah. I'd never tell him, but that's the truth of it. Now I have two Koreans in the house ... the Peerless wizard seems to be 3 rewound p/us from rather amazing, while the humble Dipinto Galaxie 4 needed nothing more than a shaved nut and lowered action. Really nice guitar.
Vintage strats should be pick of the litter, based on origin and dollar value. But not all are. Those Korean guitars - at least based on price point - should be OK, no more. Some are way more.
Walter B. makes a good point. Time and gig experience tells the truth about guitars. Too early to say about my Korean guitars, but they already have more mojo and tone than most way pricier American made instuments I've tried.
Blooze, man I like the looks of that Harmony guitar you have. Never tried one, have not seen them in the stores but I'd love to try one some time. Congrats on the Harmony guitar. I think Korea guitars are good, I have not noticed them not being very good. Not on the level of the US or Japan guitars but they are good enough for me. I still gotta get me a Silver Jet. Gretsches made in Japan are awesome and Koreans haven't caught up to the Japanese yet.
Echosonic
Koreans haven't caught up to the Japanese yet
or in case of some it's the public ("audience") that hasn't caught up yet
I did'nt get your PM catdaddy
I just wanted to exchange ideas on relicing, that's all - I'm another one that isn't too fond of pristine Fenders!
Hmm I waited awhile to chime in again, being new to Gretsches in general. As for MIKs, the Epi I mentioned I think was a "good one" from what I understand was an era of poor quality control coming out of the Samic factory. My 5120 sure seems like it is a "standard" example of what is coming out of the Gretsch factory 14 years later and it is great. I also think a lot has to do with factories QA etc. Were they set up in the USA? I like a lot of guys have played lots of guitars I could not afford, and my 5120 for playability and build is as good as any I looked at. Electronics? Well I like the pickups a lot even though they are not "traditional" Gretsch sounding, the pots and switch I think could be better and would make for a "quieter" guitar as far as ground noise goes especially when using gain, I cured most of my "when I touch the strings it goes a way" humm with a better pickup cover grounding. So BZ may be right depending on how you want to define mediocre. Maybe Mid-range would be a better description and a tad less feather ruffling, I don't think his comments were meant to be an insult or generalize all MIK guitars . The Gretsches I played before ordering my 5120 were all MIK and were much better than any squires or Ibanez' I tried (Ibanez made in Korea?). So like the man said get waht you can and enjoy them I know I am loving mine, heck I can finally even play Barre chords now! Rob
