I just don't believe in "Robin Hood". I work hard for my money and the government takes it away from me and gives it to someone else. What incentive do they have to better themselves? What incentive do I have to earn a raise or work overtime when I'll never see the money?
A discussion on politics, refined - Gretsch style.
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Aug 21, 2008 9:15 a.m. GentlBen:
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Aug 21, 2008 10:02 a.m. bigalthethird:
I agree with Ben, and I think our methods of policing/maintaining order are far more advanced now than seadevil suggests.
I highly doubt Larry Page (Google) would eviscerate Jerry Yang (Yahoo!) if given the chance. Maybe I believe too much in the fundamental good of humans, but I don't think less Government will cause anarchy. No Government absolutely would, but that's not what I'm suggesting.
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Aug 21, 2008 7:20 p.m. yettoblaster:
I say again as I've said before, to any who wish to hear: The US is not a Democracy, it is a Republic, with a representative form of gov't.
Therefore, the electoral process being as it is: " The Electoral College" elects the President. True, they are likely to represent the populaces wishes (under threat of ousting, even if we never seem to get around to ousting the no-goodniks).
But this is still the greatest country the world has ever known, in many regards.
They say WE are the government, but I think that's been largely usurped by the power elite. If our vote mattered, they wouldn't let us do it. At the State and local levels, our vote means more. I guess I sound cynical. Nevertheless, as a citizen, I vote, go on jury duty, and go through most of the other motions...
Still, every day I count my blessings and freedoms, and they are many. I wish we were doing a better educational job about the power that citizens have, when united. We stand on our forefather's shoulders (and foremother's).
I want a president who is a History major and can capture the common imagination and teach it from a broad base, not ignoring the American Indian's and Hawaiian's versions.
Politicians: we got enough of already. They shouldn't be allowed to run for the presidency if they are lawyers or businessmen.
A janitor would be a good start. At least he'd understand human needs and about how to avoid filth. Important, no?
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Aug 21, 2008 11:27 p.m. TwangOmatic:
Hey guys this is a little off topic but as a canadian im kind of curious what americans think about your news and media in general specificly fox news, do you think its biased? i get to watch a lot of american tv as well as canadian and i find it almost all biased one way or another. I also wonder if any of you listen to or watch any canadian news. I think all news on tv is biased canadian and american but i think cbc radio is generally pretty unbiased and i wonder what americans think if they even listen to it. Am i out to lunch or what? every thing is about perspectives and unfortunately i only have one, so please share yours with me.
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Aug 21, 2008 11:51 p.m. yettoblaster:
Network News in the US is Corporate news. The major networks are all owned by multinational corporations like GE.
Sometimes I listen to NPR, which is Corporate news read slower.
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Aug 22, 2008 5:33 a.m. Gigatron:
This post has been deleted
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Aug 22, 2008 5:35 a.m. Gigatron:
about politics.
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Aug 22, 2008 7:42 a.m. Bernw:
I just had to send a post from ye olde England regarding this incredible thread. My views - and a most of my English acquaintances nigh-on mirror all of yours coming from the US. It seems our countries are so similar in terms of the political arena and the interference that hacks off most reasonably intelligent people here.
It is getting worse - we are clearly being run by people who just do not live in the real World. They don't listen, they don't understand.
Fortunately Mr Brown and his Labour cronies will be gone in the not too distant future. It may not be a great deal better following the demise of this Labour government - but it'll be an encouraging start!
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Aug 22, 2008 6:29 p.m. Bryherb:
Quote from George will when he was on The Colbert Report 6-3-08: "...We understand that the government's job is to deliver the mail, defend the shores, and get out of our way."
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Aug 22, 2008 6:39 p.m. Proteus:
I often like George Will. He's a smart, articulate fella and an entertaining, often eloquent spokesman for traditional conservatism.
The quote pithily expresses a proto-libertarian model of government that might have been the Platonic ideal in 1783, when there was little interstate commerce to regulate (and the states were feuding over tariffs), and there were no great industrial corporations producing necessities of life, no public utilities on which millions relied, no national transportation systems on which prosperity and civil order depended, no media, nor even agreement on what power the feds had and what belonged to the states.
That minimalist model didn't work even then. With what resources was government to deliver the mail and defend the shores? The necessity of taxation impinged on home-brew whisky right off the bat, and there you have it.
I suppose it's all been downhill since then, but in a nation of 200 million people which would come apart in 10 days without gas and food transport, that model is patently inane, and pure fantasy.
It's a great quote, but it's practical BS.
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Aug 22, 2008 9:44 p.m. marctrain57:
Somewhat off the mark but I have to tell this story as it sparked some political feelings in me.
Yesterday I was in, of all places, a welfare office applying for medicaid for an elderly gentleman that the court had appointed me guardian for. Needless to say i was doing this pro bono.
There was a large sign on the wall, professionally made, and I am sure distributed to welfare offices around the country which said, "Ask us about the benefits of working."
What a sad commentary on life in America that you would have to advertise work. I never knew there was any other choice.
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Aug 22, 2008 10:17 p.m. yettoblaster:
Just the sort of belittling jab I'd expect from the smirking, shirking son of George "A Kinder, Gentler, America" Bush.
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Aug 22, 2008 10:46 p.m. seadevil:
This thread is basically over, but I'm tempted to vote each and every participant up for keeping the debate civil without pussyfooting around the issues. Nicely done!
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Aug 23, 2008 3:05 a.m. MR TROUBLE:
Our country has a lot of work to do and always has. IMO, until we wipe out poverty in America none of us should be gloating about being Americans or how great it is to be living in America. I'm kinda sick of the "it's not my problem" attitude I hear from certain people. Seriously, millions of people including little babies go hungry in America...every day and night. Many of our citizens have just been left for dead by the powers that be. I mean is this really how our system is supposed to work? With tiers of haves and have nots? Is there a certain percentage or number of starving infants that's allowed in our "democracy"?
And you know what, a little bad luck...you lose your job (a lot of this is going around)...or you get crippled in an accident..or you get really ill...and any one of us can end up at the local food bank. America is no place to get sick or old.
Story time: After my gig tonight I was standing out on the sidewalk and some homeless guy came up to me whistling, happy as can be, telling me he used to be a trumpet player and he was a veteran who served on an aircraft carrier...he showed me his old military ID card with his picture.
Here I am wondering if my band was gonna get paid anything for blowing the roof off the joint, even gas money, hell we can use it...and here comes some homeless guy whistling.
"Listen to your junkman...he's singing"
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Aug 23, 2008 7:57 a.m. Tony Borgosano:
Great Pick, Obama!
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Aug 23, 2008 8:18 a.m. TwangOmatic:
so what topic is up next religion?
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Aug 23, 2008 8:35 a.m. Bear:
MR TROUBLE said: And you know what, a little bad luck...you lose your job (a lot of this is going around)...or you get crippled in an accident..or you get really ill...and any one of us can end up at the local food bank. America is no place to get sick or old.
I thought I had said all I was going to say in this thread, but After reading what Mr. T had to say I wanted to add one last thing.
I will be 62 in January, I have just been diagnosed with congestive heart failure, I had colon cancer two years ago and I've been unemployed for over a year after losing my job of 15 years due to company downsizing and outsourcing. You're absolutely right Mr. T., America is no place to grow old or sick but I'd still rather be here than anywhere else.
I am not yet on public assistance because my lovely bride of 38 years is working at a fairly low paying job but they provide health insurance THANK GOD! I'm getting some social security benefits and we're eeking by but with inflation running rampant and gas at nearly $4 a gallon, it is a daily struggle to make ends meet. However, my wife and I are whistlers like Mr. T's homeless man.
As bad as things sometimes seem, they can always get worse so Janice and I try to live every moment as if it is our last since... it may well be. If you allow life to beat you down, IT WILL. I will not be a victim!
In a different thread, Mr. T said some things about me that bothered me. I thought he was pretty callous and heartless but after reading his latest post, he sounds like the kind of man I could easily call a friend. Good on ya, MR. T.
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Aug 23, 2008 8:45 a.m. TwangOmatic:
Good for you Bear i hope ya get better.
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Aug 23, 2008 8:49 a.m. Bear:
Thank you very much!
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Aug 23, 2008 3:15 p.m. F107plus5:
Hi Bear! Ah yes; Congestive Heart Failure! Had a nice eleven day hospital vacation with that stuff myself almost five years ago! I'll be 64 and whistling that favorite Beatles song here next month for sure!
Yup; the economy's fun alright. It beat our youngest daughter down so much that she gave us her four kids to raise. She and the kids were living with us in our "empty nesters" home so it was a bit tight. Of course there wasn't enough space for all seven of us so we had to go out and buy a new much larger house to fit her and the kids!
...she waited till I got out of the hospital and gotten our budget set for retirement before she gave them to us and moved out, so we ended up with a retirement plan a little bit leaner and a house a whole lot larger than we'd hoped for!
Cute kids though!
We actually adopted them a year ago last May!!
School is interesting; it costs a small fortune per each kid to send them each year since they cut the property taxes so much that the schools are horribly underfunded. But hey; the wealthy need their tax cuts to keep the economy strong. One other tax was cut though; the one that took taxes off of school purchases. This year that tax break has gone away. It may not be so bad in the long run; with "No Child left Behind" in effect, so many kids are being discouraged and dropping out early that we may not have to send the kids till they graduate!
....no way are they dropping out even if I have to pitch a tent in their school!
Uh; "Schools"! Next year we'll have kids in elementary school, middle school(where I grew up it was called Jr High)and High School!!
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Aug 23, 2008 4:08 p.m. Bear:
F107plus5, I voted you up one because you're a great grandpa. I think it is wonderful what you've done. Does your daughter ever come to see her kids? I sure hope so for their sakes. A child should never feel abandoned by their mother or father for that matter.
The heart issue is sure no picnic. I also have severe atrial fibrillation so I'm really limited to what activities I can do. Fortunately, I can still play my guitar, so I do... a lot.
Unfortunately, no matter how hard I worked, there just was never enough money for much of a retirement plan. I did have a 401K with the last company I worked for, but it went down the toilet when the stock market took a dump a few years ago. My wife is working at a $9.00 an hour job and I have some social security benefits so it is a daily struggle to get by so I know what you mean.
Oh well, it is what it is and I'm going to do the best that I can to get by and enjoy every breath that I can still take. I don't find the alternative of lying in a hole with dirt being thrown in my face as something I want to experience real soon.
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Aug 23, 2008 5:13 p.m. wenzel:
Bear, I'm voting for you!
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Aug 23, 2008 5:35 p.m. Bear:
Thanks Wenz, I appreciate it.
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Aug 23, 2008 5:55 p.m. Daddy-O:
Bear after a careful study of your platform I will write you in and support this very well though out platform. May I suggest massive deportation of so called undocumented workers and fence and patrol the boarders.
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Aug 23, 2008 6:59 p.m. reddog:
WOW, A tough balance to satisfy everyone and lead. I do not think I would enjoy or want that job. that being said F# YOU IF YOU WANT TO MAKE MY CHILDREN SAY the pledge of alligence. I do not belive in your flag or god. I think that to say you must defend YOUR borders from indeginous peoples is an obensenity. Yes this government is screwed up but its the best I've seen. I belive that Ben Frankiln said "The world is half ruined by conformity, but would be completly ruined with out it". If my ancesters felt as stronly about protecting OUR borders then YOUR ancestors would still be in a leaky boat somewhere adrift. Don't get me wrong, I love this country... so much so I devoted 4 years of my freedom and life to service of our country. I love mother earth and the many things that white man has brought and invented. but somthing to be said for "head bashed in" politics and religon(if you disagree I'll bash your head in). As far as welfare lets not forget that America's first welfare line was formed off the gang plank of the mayflower to help those starving imigrants(who by the way play lousy laccross). I fell that reguardless of ethnicticty we are all free to live as we choose. Where my rights end is exactly where yours begin.
