Vatican forgives John Lennon for Jesus quip
« » Page 1 2 3 4-
- Rated: 30 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 2:53 p.m. Beatles6120:
-
- Rated: 22 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:00 p.m. gretschiam:
Good article. Thanks. I forgive him, too.
-
- Rated: 212 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:03 p.m. Proteus:
I haven't forgiven the Vatican for a lot of things, but it's not my job to, nor does it matter.
To whom does it matter that the Vatican forgives Lennon? Was his unforgiven state producing great spiritual anxiety for leagues of Catholics wondering if it's possible to love Jesus and The Beatles both?
-
- Rated: 10 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:03 p.m. Thilton59:
I was under the impression that Lennon wasn't boasting as much as he was stating that more people knew of the Beatles, and identified with them, than had heard of Jesus.
"The Beatles are more popular, at this time, than Jesus Christ" may have been a more objective statement.
-
- Rated: 74 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:05 p.m. bonedaddy:
I gotta tell ya, I'm Catholic (a very bad Catholic, with regards to practical practice) and I don't really care that the Vatican forgave Lennon.
In their own arrogance, they couldn't face the fact that, yes, at that time, Lennon was right. Such a contradictory group really, given that Christianity was more or less a revolution against the at the time entrenched religious powers.
-
- Rated: 20 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:08 p.m. TwangOmatic:
Yay now i can safely listen to the beatles again without fear of going to hell.
-
- Rated: 12 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:11 p.m. Rally:
Who's this Vatican everyone's talking about? Is he a singer? Lennon, I've heard of.
-
- Rated: 58 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:24 p.m. yettoblaster:
So let me get this straight:
Lennon has been in hell and now has been paroled by the Pope?
Imagine!
-
- Rated: 41 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:25 p.m. J(esse James)D:
IMO. John's statement was really taken "out of context" by the press (as usual) and things went from there.
He simply made a comment about the Beatles popularity then, compared to the popularity of Jesus at his time.
The Beatles were huge............Jesus was looked at like a "goofball" by many.
I'm sure that John will rest better
-
- Rated: 58 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:30 p.m. yettoblaster:
I'm sure sorry Bill Hicks is no longer with us. But I'm sure he's still in the same cage down there Lennon was in.
-
- Rated: 212 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:44 p.m. Proteus:
And what's the motivation for their "forgiveness" - or their umbrage in the first place? Would the Vatican have taken offense if Lennon had been an unknown raving lunatic? (He would clearly have been lunatic to claim his group was more popular than ANYthing had they been unknown.)
Are they now forgiving all the unknown nobodies who've offended them down through the years - or only the famous, still-popular ones whose latter-day fans might choose The Beatles over the Sunday collection if forced by conflict of conscience TO choose?
ANYway, according to this article, the Vatican forgave the lads AT THE TIME. Did that forgiveness not take?
We have to take Lennon's apologies for the comment with a whole shaker full of salt. He tried to explain it away later as an off-the-cuff remark, and to suggest what he REALLY meant was that people ACTED like The Beatles were "more popular than."
Not so fast, John. Several months BEFORE the comments came out and caused the furor in the US, he was quoted thus in a British magazine:
John Lennon said: Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue with that; I'm right and I will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first - rock 'n' roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me.
That seems far more challenging to any Christian orthodoxy than the popularity issue alone, and considerably more difficult for him to backpedal from. He didn't even attempt to dissociate himself from those comments in the Chicago interview.
Of course "we're more popular than Jesus" was taken by many as ANTI-Christian, which it wasn't. John was no anti-Christ nor dull-witted Satanist who needed Christianity in order to have its mirror opposite.
John was a spiritual enough guy, in his own way, who embodied many of the best precepts of Christianity (which are held in common by most religions and ethical systems). But - worse than Satanic or anti-Christian in the eyes of a believer - he was areligious. I don't think he was against Christianity, but it's fair to surmise that he was indifferent to it. He denied organized religion's every claim to define his spiritual life. Neither "God" or "Satan" (as defined by the church) held any power for him.
That's what "Imagine" was all about - and it's clear he was thinking about these matters for several years before he wrote that hymn for the "unchurched" but spiritual, for do-unto-others humanists.
Surely the Vatican ought to have made a much greater issue of "Christianity will vanish and shrink," with its implications that the religion was not only irrelevant to him, it would be increasingly irrelevant to millions of others. They ought to have taken offense at "Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me" - since the Church views itself as contemporary disciples.
What Lennon's stumbling and disingenuous apologies REALLY meant were that he regretted not only the uproar, but hurting or offending anyone. I think his instinct was always to treat people gently, and had never intended for his philosophical musings about the evolution of modern religion to offend. It was probably not so much that he feared the furor would damage The Beatles commercially, but that his words had hurt people.
As far as I know, Lennon's religious background, such as it was, was Church of England. I'm not all schooled up on the contemporary relationship between the CE and the Vatican...but would a devout CE believer need the Pope to forgive him – much less a lapsed member of the CE? I thought those were separate but equal operations...
As for Lennon's contention that Christianity would vanish ... it was a commonplace observation among philosophers and academic theologians throughout the last half of the 20th century that traditional formal Christianity was losing its hold, particularly in the West. With some exceptions, it has continued to do so as other religions and forms of spirituality have made gains, or as more and more people have come to define themselves as irreligious – or at least not aligned with a formal church. "Imagine" that.
The growth of the charismatic movement and Christian fundamentalism has come as a surprise to such theorists – and in the third world, Africa, and parts of Asia, Christianity has grown exponentially, and adopted more-orthodox-than-thou positions as the west has "slacked off."
For better or worse, Christianity hasn't vanished and shrunk yet. Whether Lennon would see its current resurgence in parts of the world as a last gasp or proof that he was wrong I can't say.
He left unexplored the notion that Rock & Roll might be a substitute religion for Christianity (though he set up the implication). It has served sacramental, ritual purposes from time to time.
Bill and Ted and the Wyld Stallyns fully explored that future.
Imagine that again.
Ignore the editorial gloss the writer of this page puts on the material, but the original article and fuller text of Lennon's apology can be found here.
-
- Rated: 25 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 3:58 p.m. Parabar:
Big woop. The rest of the civilized world hasn't forgiven the Catholic Church for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the imprisonment of Galileo, the selling of indulgences, the murder of the Knights Templar (and anyone else who threatened the Church's power), or the suppression and distortion of many of the ACTUAL teachings and facts surrounding the life of that Judean feller they claim to represent.
Nor should we. (Although we can thank them for inspiring some great music --- Gregorian Chant, Bach's Cantatas and B Minor Mass ... the list goes on)
-
- Rated: 15 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 5:04 p.m. AndyJ:
That's mighty big of 'em.
So what's it been since Lennon made his comment, 43 years? Yeah that's about right for the Catholic Church . . .really in touch with the times. I can't wait for their press release regarding the war in Viet Nam.
Jeesh.
-
- Rated: 20 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 5:08 p.m. TAG4:
Parabar--Don't forget the child molestations and other sexual misconducts!
TAG4
-
- Rated: 2 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 5:19 p.m. jackrd:
Let's not forget that the real group behind the fanning of the flames, at least in the U.S. was the KKK. Not exactly a moniker of christianity themselves.
-
- Rated: 30 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 5:29 p.m. Beatles6120:
I am so glad I'm A JEW! As far as I'm concerned John Lennon made a crack about another Jew with delusions of grandeur. No biggie.
-
- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 5:39 p.m. roadjunkie:
When you sit and think about it they took the gospel to suit their own means and made Mary Magdeline a whore! They have a genocide record that rivals Hitler, Stalin. Ghenis Khan and the Islamic terrorist since Israel recreation in 48 combined! Enforced servitude of indigenous peoples around the world!
Who's going to forgive them? Them forgiving John Lennon means nothing!
-
- Rated: 19 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 5:40 p.m. CnW:
The most offended back in '66 were probably bible belt protestant fundamentalists. The RC church's current "re-forgiving" of the controversial Mr. Lennon smacks of PR. But, to what end?
I'm not catholic, so I'm just taking a stab here.... I'd guess this is part of a (well intentioned?) new campaign to bridge old gaps and reach out to old prodigals. Maybe somebody did a survey of long inactive members to determine what curdled their cream? A lot of churches today are paying marketing firms for their professional expertise. This may be a foot going in a good direction, I dunno. No doubt there is going to be some backlash. You think?
Having read the New Testament, I think it's safe to say that Jesus picked the 12 disciples because they were "thick and ordinary."
As for John's instincts tending toward the humane side.....I remember that Brian Epstein told John he was writing an autobiography. John said "What are you going to call it, 'Queer Jew?'" He wasn't as much of a pussycat in those days as he was in later years.
-
- Rated: 14 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 6:11 p.m. Tim:
If you read the article again, it is MSNBC (not the most respected news agency in the business) who said the Vatican "forgave" Lennon. Nowhere in the statement from a Vatican spokesman does it say that "we forgive him." They simply remark about the state of things at the time Lennon made his comment.
Furthermore, the Vatican newspaper was one of the only groups who did not condemn but defended Lennon at the time of his comment.
Lastly, anti Catholic prejudice mixed in with historical ignorance is not a pleasant combination. It really is depressing that I have to come to a guitar discussion page and hear this kind of false, slanderous shit.
And I will leave you with the remarkable words of Bishop Fulton Sheen: "There is no one who hates the Catholic Church but there are millions who hate what they think the Catholic Church is.
-
- Rated: 31 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 6:25 p.m. Danman:
well the vatican always goes well along with their time: They admitted about 10 years that they were wrong when they banned Galileo Galilei because he said that the earth was round. So now it is officially true: the earth is round.
So I must say that they actually are really fast with this bit of important information, lucky Lennon ......
-
- Rated: 4 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 6:36 p.m. thx712517:
First post, probably last post too. Got myself a gorgeous 5120 a few days ago, found the forum, interested in the Tru-Arc bridge and a Setzer pick guard. I'm a Catholic, have been since before I was born, big fan of the Beatles. I can't say I'm shocked at the anti-Catholic sentiment or even appalled, because it seems the fashionable thing to hate people raised to turn the other cheek. But it sucks that it's so strong here and I'm going to be missing out on any info this forum had because I'm sure not going to be sticking around here.
-
- Rated: 19 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 6:36 p.m. CnW:
A recent article in the Vatican's daily paper commenting on the 40th anniversary of "The White Album" was picked up by Reuters.
Perhaps not so much PR going on, just a rehash of 40-year-old news. I'd buy that.
It would help to have seen the original Vatican paper article in its entirity and apart from the spin of the story run on the MSNBC site, which would seem to have taken things considerably further than the quotes attributed to to original piece.
Edited: Please feel free to stick around thx712517 and talk guitars and such----there's as much good stuff on the rest of this board as you will find anywhere in guitarboarddom!
-
- Rated: 212 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 6:40 p.m. Proteus:
Furthermore, the Vatican newspaper was one of the only groups who did not condemn but defended Lennon at the time of his comment.
Documentation? If they defended him then, what need to excuse him now?
I don't see any anti-Catholic prejudice here – at least there's none on my part, and I'm sorry if it seemed so. What I do see is strong sentiment against positions and actions "the Vatican" (not necessarily rank and file clergy, or individual Catholics) has taken over centuries, no doubt as each of us understands them. I don't think anyone means to slander the Church.
No crusades, complicity with Nazi Germany, Borgia pope, clerical cynicism and corruption, pedophilia in the clergy, suppression and persecution of "heretics," Inquisition?
Much evil has come along with the good the church (Protestant as well as RC) has done through the ages. I don't hold the Protestant churches blameless (nor do I figure it matters to any church what I think, nor should it). But I note that Lutherans and their splinter factions were killing each other over doctrine within a generation of the "Reformation," and most if not all the denominational leadership through the centuries have been responsible for supporting and perpetuating various horrors and abuses from racism to sexism to attempts to legislate the morality of others.
It's just that "the Vatican" (ie, the top of the Catholic hierarchy) has had 1,200 years longer to accrue a record. I think it's fair to recognize the evil along with the good in any of our institutions, even the oldest one still operating.
-
- Rated: 212 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 7:12 p.m. Proteus:
Well, it's not 40-year-old news: MSNBC is one among at least dozens of international news outlets reporting on a "lengthy editorial" in the Vatican's daily newspaper. I find discussion at various other forums as to whether that article is an arts retrospective on The Beatles or some kind of more official statement from The Vatican.
What I HAVEN'T found so far is the actual text of the article in L'Osservatore Romano. I find L'Osservatore's English website, but no way to search the contents of the paper. When I download a pdf, I get only the front page.
-
- Rated: 14 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 7:27 p.m. Tim:
Dear Proteus, you say one moment that "I don't think anyone means to slander the Church" and then state the "evil" that accrues in "any of our institutions." This little statement "No crusades, complicity with Nazi Germany, Borgia pope, clerical cynicism and corruption, pedophilia in the clergy, suppression and persecution of "heretics," Inquisition? " is enough to demonstrate the utter simplicity and historical ignorance of those who assume ownership of the Moral Compass of the World. To live in the 21st century and pass moral judgment on people in ancient times, foreign cultures and archaic political systems is the height of arrogance in my book.
I am amazed that the only acceptable prejudice in today's society is anti Catholicism. Unfortunately, I did not expect it to raise its head here. I have been a member of the GDP since 2002 and have never had to be insulted like this. What makes it worse is that the people who I thought were "good" people would be the ones who spout such garbage but I should not be surprised when I recall the Soapbox forum that had to be shut down for much of the same reason. In any event, it is sad that thx712517, as a new and probably former member, had to be turned off by this b.s. For Gretsch guitar info this place cannot be beat. But if this is the price to pay to continue here then I just may cash in my chips, too. I'll think twice before I come back...
