if we're going to judge the Church on the worst of its past, why can't we judge socialism on its more recent and far more horrific past?
Vatican forgives John Lennon for Jesus quip
« » Page 1 2 3 4-
- Rated: 41 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 8:29 p.m. dubkitty:
-
- Rated: 19 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 8:47 p.m. CnW:
Religion and politics in the same thread? Isn't there a law against that?
-
- Rated: 37 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 8:47 p.m. MR TROUBLE:
-
- Rated: 41 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 8:51 p.m. dubkitty:
that's a great track. it's a shame that they bowdlerized "Fight the Power" on the Starbucks compilation.
i'm not going off on a rant...it just seems like if we're going to judge crimes and atrocities, we shouldn't grade on the curve. but it seems like people get their teets in a wringer about Christian hypocricy and crimes in a way one never hears about Soviet and/or Asian Communism, the expansion of Islam (oh! that someone should show similar indignation towards the Siege of Vienna or the dynamiting of the Afghan Buddhas as that aimed at the Crusades, the first of which was launched as a response to Muslim aggression), Fascism, the Roman Empire, or the complicity of some African tribes and religious groups in the slave trade.
-
- Rated: 8 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 9:04 p.m. Whofan:
"Peacefully they will die, peacefully they will expire in your name, and beyond the grave they will find only death. But we will keep the secret, and for their own happiness we will entice them with a heavenly and eternal reward."
- The Grand Inquisitor to his 'Savior' in The Brothers Karamazov
-
- Rated: 35 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 9:06 p.m. crowbone:
Don't forget those damn hell raisin' Eskimos.
-
- Rated: 20 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 9:54 p.m. TwangOmatic:
I personally am anti theist not anti christian. I think all religions are equally silly.
-
- Rated: 115 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 10:03 p.m. wenzel:
I can finally sleep now that the Vatican has forgiven John. I was up late at night worrying about this!
-
- Rated: 8 ↑
Nov 22, 2008 10:11 p.m. Whofan:
"I don't need to fight - to prove I'm right - I don't need to be forgiven"
I think John would agree with Pete.
-
- Rated: 20 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 6:00 a.m. Century Bob:
I have to say as another longtime member since 2002 I`m with Tim and thx712517. Its pretty easy to take shots a large institutions such as the Catholic Church. As a guitar forum I dont come here to read people tear at what others hold valuable. I understand how people love John Lennon and the Beatles. I dont for many reasons but I would not make a dissertation about that just to put down others. I dont think this thread was started in poor taste because it is music related, but the fangs came out.
-
- Rated: 12 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 6:49 a.m. SJB66:
Does it not say in the bible to not hold grudges? Maybe not those exact words, but the catholic's do it anyway. No offense to anyone, I was raised catholic and I DO NOT consider myself a catholic at all. Karl
-
- Rated: 29 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 7:47 a.m. SqwareKat:
I'm sorry to hear that the Vatican has so grieviously injured so many of you. I can only begin to imagine what horrible violations you've all suffered to trigger such an outcry as this. Particularly over the Vatican trying to reach out and make peace no less.
For those who have dismissed this action, why all the noise? If it's no big deal, then why such an uproar?
For those who say it's 40 years too late, wouldn't late be better than never? As Tim pointed out, the article never says that now in 2008 is Mr. Lennon first forgiven for his remarks.
Proteus, I've come to expect better of you. Much better. Very recently you were admonishing the members of this very forum for getting into heated and inflammatory arguments over politics. And now you turn a deaf ear as people mock the Church? I know you aren't that naive, not even close. I've read some very ugly things said about the Church in this thread and I know you have too. Shame on you for not acknowledging what's going on.
Those of you who have the utter hubris to judge the Church over the crusades, Galileo, etc., give me a break. That generation of people is long dead, and answered to God for their offenses centuries ago. This is now. 2008. Benedict XVI is the current pope. Get with the times yourselves, or you have no leverage, no foothold, no nothing to judge anyone else for "not being with the times".
Good for the Church for trying to make amends. Shame on all of you who mock them for doing so.
-
- Rated: 53 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 7:56 a.m. Ratrod:
Strange it has taken so long for them to forgive.
They're Christians, right? Isn't every Christian supposed to turn the other cheek and forgive?
Some call it the Vatican. I call it the Muppet Show (without the sence of humor).
-
- Rated: 83 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 8:30 a.m. Deed Eddy:
Try to see the positive side of this, for Heaven's sake. The L'Observatore Romano (Vatican paper) article is raving about The Beatles, and refers to John Lennon and his infamous quote in a very sympathetic way.
I truly hope that this cheapshot-athon would come to an end.
-
- Rated: 12 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 9:11 a.m. Chonny:
Religion happened here ----------------x
-
- Rated: 13 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 10:10 a.m. MedinaMade:
Greetings, I would just like to say that I personally respect all religions and beliefs. It's a human right and a way of life. I do not respect others who have posted here and ridicule, hate or attack other churches and religions. I've been a member here for many years as well as a sponsor. Back in the day we respected all on this board. We talked guitars and amps and ect. My post have always been to ask for help and info or to help others. Some posters here are just plain mean. Then they turn around in there next post and say, "I didn't say anything what are you talkin about"? It's obivious to me a certain few on here talk just to talk but say nothing. I'm Catholic, I'm offended, I'm not suprised though because today no one seems to care who is hurt. Not just here but the world over. To all my old friends here I say, "God Bless". To my long time friend Baxter whom I've worked closely with in the past I say, "Thanks for your time and effort". To everyone else I say "Have fun,Talk Guitars, and first and foremost ......Respect all! Here, I am no more. Peace, Julius
-
- Rated: 33 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 10:27 a.m. FrequentFlyer909:
My experience with all groups/organizations (be they political, religious, ethnic, racial, or special-interest) is that they're never as nice as the individuals that comprise them. I've made my peace with that experience and perception (and the value judgments that ride shotgun with them), because the groups and organizations that we all notice are not going away, and we don't influence them unless we're members ourselves.
The exceptions tend to be the Salvation Army and the GDP, but this thread has not displayed our more flattering sides, folks.
SqwareKat, you make a good point in your opening paragraph. I may find the Roman Catholic Church's stances, history, and influence to contain objectionable elements, but they really don't affect what I eat for breakfast on Tuesdays...
...unless the Crusades caused a depletion in the gene pool that ultimately diminished my potential for intellectual functioning and so I reduce issues to simplistic terms such as my breakfast menu... in which case I'm going to request a recount or a refund. But that's a reach, you know?
The piece in the L'Observatore Romano seems to be an acknowledgment and appreciation of the Beatles' work as durable, positive contributions to the world's culture; coming some 40 years after their work was accomplished is something of a meta-testimony -- it was written for posterity as much as current readers, for historical perspective --, and that's entirely appropriate, I think. Seems to be something they do from time to time to let their followers know where they stand.
Paul/FF909
PS: Sorta full disclosure: I'm not Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Rastafarian, Bahai, atheist, or Bokononist... Edit: or Jewish.
PPS: Kellogg's Vanilla Creme Frosted Mini-Wheats on Tuesdays!
-
- Rated: 12 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 10:27 a.m. SJB66:
Whatever happened to freedom of speech? The right to speak for yourself? The right to an opinion? We all are free to say what we want. Not everyone is going to agree about everything. We all have the right to think what we want. People should not get offended because others don't agree with them. My closest friend is a devout Catholic, and as stated before I AM NOT. But, we are the best of friends, he has his thing and I have mine. And we respect the right we have to make our own choices and have our own opinions.No Disrespect intended to anyone! Karl
-
- Rated: 40 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 11:57 a.m. roadjunkie:
I realize my earlier comments were harsh. I don't consider them anti-Catholic but ant-doctrine. There's been people in my life who were totally ruined by decisions made by the church. One is no longer on the planet because he was told what happened to him didn't happen and he couldn't handle it! So I'm a bit bitter!
It may not be fair to bring up the misdeeds over 2,000 years. It also isn't fair of what happened to this man that I once knew. I put this all out of my mind sometime ago so maybe this thread was a good thing for me. Some thoughts shouldn't be so suppressed!
I'll bail on this thread but those who were offended by what they felt were anti-sentiments they weren't personal. There's no hatred in my words. I just feel that those who offer atonement have a lot to atone for themselves. Then maybe some other young boy won't grow up so confused that he would stick a barrel in his mouth!
-
- Rated: 8 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 12:36 p.m. Whofan:
This thread has brought up alot of strong feelings - maybe it will be fodder for some song writing for those involved? I'd like to hear more songs dealing with religous conflict, or philisophical anguish in genereal, but that's probably not commercially popular.
-
- Rated: 115 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 12:40 p.m. wenzel:
I didn't know John needed forgiveness from the Pope? John was a free spirit and with the, well, I won't go there, from the Catholic preiests, why do I care if they forgive John or not? I don't... I seriously wasn't losing any sleep over this at all. I think it's intersting that they would take this long to forgive him, but hey, they are human too, even the pope... They are not holier than thou!
-
- Rated: 74 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 12:53 p.m. bonedaddy:
As I said earlier, I'm Catholic. I'm not offended. I believe in the right to freedom of speech. I also believe that to become educated on both sides of things requires discussion. Sometimes that comes in the form of saying things out of ignorance, or preconceived notions, or maybe, truly out of spite.
Yes, the Catholic Church has had it's share of political and social scandals. I think it's inevitable that any organization of it's size would have the same. I choose to judge the Church on it's merits, as much as it's faults. I think for the overwhelming majority, the local, grass roots, Parish activities are genuinely good.
-
- Rated: 29 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 12:54 p.m. SqwareKat:
Roadjunkie, I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. Such abuses do occur, I won't try to deny that. No one should have to endure that, much less be forced to suffer in silence about it. Those who are guilty WILL have to answer to God for what they've done. I pity them. I wish I could offer you something to somehow make things better; I'm truly sorry that my condolences are the best I can do.
Paul, thank you for your open-mindedness. Clearly you are more enlightened than some around here.
SJB66, this is not a referendum on free speech. But if you insist upon turning it into one, then how about a little responsibility with that freedom? Is it too much to ask that people THINK just a little bit BEFORE they spout off something that's likely to be hurtful? Sure, Catholics aren't perfect, just like everyone else. Sure, you have t he right to point that out. Some people like roadjunkie have some rather legitimate gripes with the Church leadership. Others seem to be lightingtheir torches and sharpening their pitchforkes because it looks like the fashionable thing to do. That's not wise or productive, and not the standard to which we usually hold ourselves around here. Finally, if you're going to advocate free speech, then the Vatican certainly has the right to say "ain't no thang" to John, 40 years ago or now.
-
- Rated: 8 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 1:07 p.m. Whofan:
I fully agree with Bone's post.
Also, I find "I'd rather see you dead little girl than to see you with another man" more offensive than "We're bigger than Jesus." - but then the level of offense is in the eye of the offended.
-
- Rated: 12 ↑
Nov 23, 2008 1:11 p.m. SJB66:
We have the right to say what we want, it does not mean everyone has to agree. Who cares what I think? what is important is what we as individuals think ourselves not what everyone else thinks about it. And yes we do have the right to say what we want. but it does not mean everyone has to like it. That's life, you cannot please everyone. And we should not have to. And just because we all don't agree does not mean we have to drop out if the board.
Karl
