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Andy's "57" Chet Atkins 6121 Jet. Watch as it gets repaired.

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- Rated: 30 ↑
Mar 31, 2008 11:30 p.m. JackDaniels:

I literally get dozens of emails each month asking me to work on vintage Gretsch guitars. I guess not to many repair men know the contruction of the old Gretsch's and so they would turn down work. I know the construction of these old guitars pretty well, but always turn down the work anyway. In some moment of weakness, I told Andy, I would do the work on his project guitar. It is a cool early 57 jet. A 6121 Chet Atkins Jet to boot!

It has had a total refin, a poor neck angle set, some replaced binding repairs and repro parts for the most part.

Over the next few weeks, I am going to keep Andy informed of the repairs here online. Andy felt it would be cool for everyone to watch the progress.

First up is measuring the neck angle as it approaches the bridge. It is very low (9/16") and even without the adjustment screws under the bridge, you can not get the bridge low enough to get a good action. Now that I have that information documented, I will need to determine how to resolve it:
- Rated: 30 ↑
Mar 31, 2008 11:37 p.m. JackDaniels:

Here is the neck angle shot:
- Rated: 30 ↑
Mar 31, 2008 11:43 p.m. JackDaniels:

The top pic has a clear shot of the ruler. The numbers on right side are in inches. So, yep the neck angle is way to shallow. Notice even without the bridge adjustment screws (and the bridge setting down right onto the base, the action would be very high. It also would almost be laying right on the bridge pickup at this height. No good!

This guitar is the prime candidate for a neck reset. A neck reset is when the guitars neck angle needs to be changed. So this is not re-glueing a neck, but removing wood from the inside section of the heel so the neck tilts backwards more than it does now. This raises the end of the fingerboard and allows the action to come way down. (actually, the action doesn't change, we bring the neck up to better fit the current actions...if that makes sense)

So next up will be removing the neck.
- Rated: 32 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 3:22 a.m. fws6:

from here the refin doesnt look so bad ?

Good luck with the reset job and keep us posted !!!
- Rated: 32 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 3:22 a.m. fws6:

from here the refin doesnt look so bad ?

Good luck with the reset job and keep us posted !!!
- Rated: 32 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 3:23 a.m. fws6:

yes there it is again ladies and gentlemen the famous double post
- Rated: 53 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 5:28 a.m. Ratrod:

This is going to be an interesting topic to follow.

Good luck Jack.
- Rated: 29 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 7:01 a.m. Shuie:

I love watching guitar ressurrections. This looks like it will be fun, for the casual viewer, anyway. I'm going to bring a blanket and picnic to this one. Pork pie, anyone?

Hope it goes smoothly, Jack.
- Rated: 77 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 8:15 a.m. sassy:

I also love to watch a Craftsman at work...Thank you for the thread
- Rated: 31 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 8:24 a.m. Danman:

JD: Great topic and interesting to follow. Looking forward to it and good luck with the repairs.

Shuie: I'll be there, and I'll bring the wine. Three bottles enough?
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 8:50 a.m. JazzBoxJunky:

It needs a neckset? That usually means put a Bigsby bridge on it, and a G tailpiece, and put it on EBay....
- Rated: 19 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 9:09 a.m. TyPierce:

JD: Great thread. After hearing about so many vintage Gretsches with neck resets, I'm looking forward to seeing what all it entails.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 9:35 a.m. JackDaniels:

In this case, the refinish is not really all that bad, but it did have some problems. Mostly in the details. Where the binding pulled at the waist-line, the guy who did the work just filled it in with Lacquer. That probably looked fine for the first month, but Nitro shrinks for quite a few years. So eventually the void between the binding and the body opened back up. Also lots of build up in the neck/heel joints etc.

Right now, I told Andy that we should not do an additional refinish on this one. I think for what this is, the current finish will be fine. I will probably tackle some of the binding issues in a week or so.

Frank and Jay, thanks for your emails and help. I think Andy and I are considering each option as we get to each step.

This one probably had a G tail on it to compensate for the low angle. Andy has a B3 that will be going on it. He also sent me a Bigsby Aluminum Bridge that we will use on this one. The neck angle was still way to low.
- Rated: 4 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 9:41 a.m. hypnofonic:

yeah, it came with a 60's b3, i am replacing it with an early b3. a g-tailpiece would have probably solved the playability problem but this little 6121 begged to be revived and brought back to life...

really stoked to have joe do his magic on my poor little 6121..also looking forward to watching the progress. it has sat in its case for the last year or so without being touched because it was so unplayable...

thanks again joe for taking this on!
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 9:43 a.m. JackDaniels:

Ok, so a neck reset is the way to go. It always kills me to do a neck reset, because many times the guitar LOOKS great as is. The finish is often perfect or very nice and no signs of neck issues are visual. Unfortunately, the guitar is quite unplayable even with its good looks. So here we go.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not a small job and I don't think I advise those who are not really skilled with woodworking and craftmanship to try this on a vintage guitar. While the steps below look pretty simple, this is a very nerve racking and tidious job. Every job is different and you don't know what you will run into. I done quite a few of these and I can honestly say, I was worried with this one right up until the neck came out. Ok, that is my disclaimer.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 9:57 a.m. JackDaniels:

Ok, so first things first. I need to prepare the neck joint area to be separated from the body. I use a very sharp exacto knife (find a new blade..) and score a line right at the joint on all three sides. Go very slowly so you don’t slip and mar the finish. I am trying to save the finish here!

First score line:(Andy, this is the side most critical. This has to have a smooth transition one we place it back together. This will be where the most finish work will be done to hide/cover the work. There will be a gap between the old finish on both sides of the joint and there area we re-cut. So I will be drop filling lacquer in that area, build it up and then level it back down. More Later)

Second score line at the heel. You can see some of the Lacquer buildup in this shot:

Final score line.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 10:16 a.m. JazzBoxJunky:

How much higher do you want the bridge to be? The thought crossed my mind, when you get the neck off, maybe you can remove the neck extension, (or laminate onto the bottom of it)and make a new thicker one. Of course this will just move the neck upward, and not change the angle. Plus it will shorten the heel, so you might have to make a extension, or thicker heel cap, as well as refit the dovetail. If you do a reset and shave the heel for more angle, you will still have to deal with the neck extension seating squarely. Maybe I'll just shut up and watch, good luck Joe.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 10:31 a.m. JackDaniels:

Jazzman, what'sup?

Well I think the strings need to be 1/4" higher at the bridge than it is now. That leaves adjustments up and down. Right now it is only 1/2" off the deck. I would guess most jets are 3/4" or a little more off the deck. You will see a little later in this post, why the extension won't mater much. Remember, the extension does not sit right on the top. It touches at the neck joint and should point upward toward the bridge. The fingerboard is perfectly flat but the neck is on the angle.

I thought I uploaded a side shot photo so you can see what I mean, but it is not in my photobuck account. I may have to upload that pic tonight.

I really want to make this repair undectable in as best to my ability. So I don't really want to make a new heel cap or change the hight of the neck. I just want to tilt it up some.

By the way (BTW): You would be surprised at how little I will tilt it to come up with another 1/4" of adjustment. For example: if I tilt the neck by only 1/16", the headstock goes back almost 3/8" and the other end comes up by a 1/4". That is just a guess on the numbers, but I think you get the idea.

The total geometry is taken into account. What I do to one end, does the oposite to the other. The fact that I will to it closer to one will have a slightly different affect on the opposite.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 10:35 a.m. JazzBoxJunky:

Yeah, that's definitely the right way to do it, I didnt realize it was that low.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 10:38 a.m. JackDaniels:

Next up is to determine what the neck joint is, and hot to get steam into it. This guitar really caused great confusion for me. I have seen a handful of 54-57 jets apart at the neck joint and all have had Dove tail joints like this one:

When I got ready to start the actual work, I noticed under the fingerboard extension that the neck joint was much longer than the others I had seen. I was always quite confident that Gretsch did not go to the new neck joint until 58. In fact, I also thought that the dowel/screw method on jets (starting late 57) still used the dove tail thru 59. So finding a mortise/tenon joint was not something I thought I would see until actual some time in 59. (6120 kept the dove tail until the side dowel version in 60). So I was not sure what I was now going to see in this guitar now.

I assumed that what I was seeing in front of me was reality now, so I change my strategy a little. Normally I remove the fret just in front of the neck joint (14-ish) and drill a hole thru the fingerboard into the gap on the neck joint. In this case, that gap was much closer to the end of the fingerboard. Maybe 18 or 19?. If you look under the extension, you can see the end of the neck joint. You want to be just in front of that joint with your hole. So I removed that fret and drilled a 3/32” hole down the center into the pocket. Here’s a couple of pics:

And here is the hole I drilled. I stuck some wire in there to ensure I was into the neck pocket:
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 10:45 a.m. JackDaniels:

I guess this is where a little history helps. The neck pocket regardless of a dove tail or a mortise/tenon always has a little room in front of it. I am sure this was done by design all the way back to the 1800’s I have repaired a lot of necks and they have always had this. This does two things. It allows the neck to slide in a little easier not touching all 5 surfaces ( 2 sides, the bottom and front wall). But it also allows a place for disassembly. Gretsch, Gibson and Martin often had to take necks off their guitars for repair. Especially in the 40-60’s. So a method was needed to do this quickly and cleanly. This is the same method I use to some extent. I can insert steam in this empty section of the neck pocket and heat the old glue up. Hyde glue is subject to heat and moisture breakdown. (don’t leave your instruments in the attic!). To use hyde glue, you heat it up and mix in water. When it cools, it is really hard and firm. To remove it, you heat it up with heat and water (steam) and it breaks back down to a gooey mess. Within a minute or two of removing heat, it hardens back up. You do not have a lot of time to work it coming or going.
- Rated: 56 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 10:55 a.m. otterbean:

It is amazing how small changes at the neck joint affect the overall angle of the neck. Small changes at that joint mean big movement at the headstock end. That angle has got to be dead on.

Thanks for shedding some light on the black art of guitar repair. This goes way beyond plopping in some new pickups and soldering a few wires. This is serious structural stuff.- Not everyone who claims to be a luthier is one. Jackdaniels is showing us some nice hardcore examples of a luthier praticing his craft. - APPLAUSE are in order.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 11:04 a.m. JackDaniels:

Ok, so here is why you spend $300-500 for a neck reset. If it wasn’t bad enough that you have scored lines into your precious vintage guitar, and you removed an original fret and further more drilled a hole thru the fingerboard, now you apply steam and force and hope it comes apart without the body falling apart, or the steam getting under the finish etc. The craftsman that does this work really assumes a huge amount of liability that this guitar will someday go back together and be one again. A simple slip of any of these procedures and the guitar is junk or is really messed up for every.

I don’t have a good picture of this next step, but I can explain it: I want to try and loosen the heel from the body a little so that once I get the joint loose I can push the neck out from the back. I can not loosen it to much yet, or I will crack the heel off of the neck. Remember the neck joint is not loose yet. So I am just trying to reduce areas that will not get a lot of steam applied to them. (There are specialty blades and spatulas you can buy for doing this, but I make my own. Basically I find the super thin flexible putty knifes [several sizes]. The first thing I do is round off the corner edges of the knife so there is no sharp edges. You can imagine how you would be working with one edge of the knife and the other edge scratches you finish and you did not even know it. So everything is rounded off. I also sand them very smooth so they slide easily in and out of a joint.)

I work this blade by heating up the metal (with a heat gun) and start to work the area’s I scored with the exacto blade. Sometimes I add a little drop of water into the joint or use a little steam to get it started. The trick is to get the old glue hot and peel it out of the joint. So with the blade, a fine wire pick and an exacto knife I clean out as much of that joint as I can. The big thing to be careful of is to NOT round over the edges of the heel or body joint. You need that joint to stay as flat as possible. This guitar showed some signs of some previous work, but we assumed the neck joint was original. I will have to try and restore the sharpness to this joint when I put it back together.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 11:24 a.m. JackDaniels:

Now that I have a somewhat loose joint, I get the guitar into another home made device. It is neck removal jig. These are readily available from StewartMac for about $100. I made mine just for this job. It’s cold in Chicago, so this was made with hand tools in my basement shop. I would have done a much nicer job had it been warm out and I could have gotten to my machines.

Look at the picture. I have access to the neck joint, the heel, the fingerboard and the sides. Also notice I have a screw behind the heel. You can not really see it in this picture, but that screw is about 3” long behind the heel and has a handle on it. (You also can not see, but I place a piece of metal in between the heel plastic and that screw to not damage the heel cap and to apply pressure across the entire neck/heel joint and not just in one little spot. One the glue is soft and the neck is loose; I turn that screw to push the neck out of the pocket. That way not forces is needed on the neck itself. You don’t want to break the neck trying to get the joint loose. As you can see, this is perfect for a dovetail that slips in like a puzzle piece. This guitar turned out not to have a dovetail (as you will also see) which made removal ton more difficult. You also do not want to keep tightening that screw if the neck is not moving. You can put an amazing amount of pressure on a guitar body, neck and heel joint. It would be quite easy to break a guitar completely apart if it was old and delicate and the glue was not soft yet. Remember that a jet is a hollow body guitar, regardless of what it looks like from the outside.

Also look at the picture. You can see that I have a hose connected to a steam device. I built a needle style coupler to attach to it. Steam flows down the tube and into the neck joint. Normally on a dove tail joint, (if you have done the rest of the prep work) this takes about 5-8 minutes to loosen the glue. That is assuming the original Hyde glue was used. So in not my luck for this job.

PLEASE-PLEASE-PLEASE know what you are doing if you are going to try this at home. I know I keep saying that, but I am a little concerned that I could be stoking someone’s fire to try this, which is not ready to attempt this work. I am showing you guys this for two reasons. 1) Because Andy thought it would be cool for everyone to see, and 2) so you guys can appreciate the work that a repairman goes thru just to do even the smallest of jobs. It is not really meant to be a tutorial or step by step. Off soap box again…sorry.
- Rated: 30 ↑
Apr 1, 2008 11:31 a.m. JazzBoxJunky:

The guitar doesn't have a dovetail? Whoa, I wasn't expecting that. I'ts true, the repairman is the guy that gets all the surprises, and just enough compensation to make it worthwhile. Perhaps it was once a dovetail? Old repair?

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