The Gretsch Pages: Discussions: Vintage Gretsch Guitars: Anyone tried repairing a bad binding?

Anyone tried repairing a bad binding?

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- Rated: 5 ↑
May 13, 2008 7:03 a.m. Paddywagon:

I know the popular answer will be to leave a bad binding alone. I'm just curious if anyone has tried filling some of the holes or rot with an epoxy or some sort of material to stabilize the decay. I'll be curious to hear your responses!
- Rated: 14 ↑
May 13, 2008 8:36 a.m. ThePolecats:

My 1964 Country Club has bad binding. I checked to find out how much it cost to repair. I checked a couple of places and it cost about $400 and takes about 6 months to do. Yes, you have to leave it for 6 months. I checked about 2 places and the answer is the same, 400 bucks and 6 months. You would think it would be fast and easy to do but it's the kind of job that a luthier does between projects. It also takes a long time to let set and dry I think. So they do a little then go off and do other projects and work on it over time. So I figured that at home it's something that most people can't do. It's more involved that we would think and harder to do than we would think. So I decided not to attempt it.
- Rated: 32 ↑
May 13, 2008 9:55 a.m. fws6:

tried: yes succeeded: no

If you graft new pieces into rotten binding, or try to put some paste in it, it will look awful becuase it is impossible for the colors to completely match. Besides the rotting in the original bingding wont stop so repaired patches fall out after a while

A few years ago I had a '54 guild with terrible binding rot, and after two or three attempts at repair I just has it rebound. Was not that expensive at the time about 150 and it looked much better

I think noone will complain about 'originality' of a vintage guitar once it has severe binding rot.
- Rated: 32 ↑
May 13, 2008 9:59 a.m. fws6:
- Rated: 32 ↑
May 13, 2008 10:01 a.m. fws6:

after:
- Rated: 14 ↑
May 13, 2008 10:10 a.m. ThePolecats:

fw, $150 is a great deal. I live in Southern California. Maybe in So Cal they charge more. But if you got it done for $150 then you got a great deal. How long did the shop take to repair it?
- Rated: 30 ↑
May 13, 2008 3:53 p.m. JackDaniels:

Ummm....yep. Its a delicate job if you are trying to save the original finish. I have not seen one where the binding came off so clean that some filling was not needed. Its the minor chipping in the finish etc that occurs that makes it tough to do. To make it look original again takes some talent. Even if it looks clean, like Frank's first picture, it is a different story when you but up a perfectly flat piece of binding next to it. Then all the little imperfections of the finish show up.

JD
- Rated: 5 ↑
May 14, 2008 6:56 a.m. Paddywagon:

Thanks, guys. I was referring to "repairing" as opposed to "replacing" I guess. I've seen a couple of guitars on ebay where the description said the bad binding was filled with epoxy. Part of me knows that this is probably a bad idea for a fix, but another part thinks it might fill in the ugly pitting and cover up some of the discoloration. I was wondering if 3M or someone made a special plastic based putty or something. I'm pretty certain I wouldn't attempt such a project!
- Rated: 13 ↑
May 14, 2008 7:14 a.m. nielDa:

A technique for repairing nuts and acoustic guitar saddles (where string slots have been sanded too deep) is to sand a piece of bone (or other saddle material) and mix the dust with glue (superglue?). I've never heard of anyone using this technique for repairing binding however, Just a thought - it could be worth a Google search.

Dan
- Rated: 32 ↑
May 14, 2008 7:27 a.m. fws6:

>How long did the shop take to repair it?

Forever but it turned out nice in the end. It took most time finding binding material that was wide enough to match 1 ply white stuff the Guild originally had. The 150 was a good deal I know. Many luthiers dont like binding work and just refuse or ask stupid prices. I never understood why, they also have to do it when they build a new guitar, it is not that much work at all. That's also how I had it done. The luthier I went to was doing bindings on one of his own guitars and just did mine at the same time. Once he got started it took a week or so not more. 6 months waiting is awful. How long do these guys then take for a refret or so (which is much more work)

>you are trying to save the original finish

Of course, for my guitar it was an advantage that the guitar was a blonde. So it didnt need any touch up of the finish or so after the binding was removed and repaired.

>I've seen a couple of guitars on ebay where the description said the bad binding was filled with epoxy.

Yup, people do that. And then try to sell it as soon as possible before it falls off again

>mix the dust with glue (superglue?).

That works great to fill a small / confined hole. Besides the acrylate in super glue you can also use acetone or other organic solvent. But to repair the entire binding like that would take forever as you can de only a few millimeter each time. If you use 'wet' repir material like that you also have to be very careful not to spill a drop als it will eat into the finish.
- Rated: 21 ↑
May 14, 2008 2:58 p.m. chrisp:

I just re-bound the FB on an L-4 CES, but this was easy since there was no seam to make between old and new binding, and it is part of a full re-finish, so no chipping and filling issues.

Man, this is one hard-used guitar - a 1997 that could pass for 1967 in terms of wear and tear.

Most binding on guitars made after you were born is ABS plastic or wood - there are exceptions, but it is a reasonable generalisation.

Here are various semi-responsible opinions and possible reasons why guys may not want to fix your binding for normal money :

I love CA (krazy glue) for all sorts of repairs, but it can stick rather poorly to ABS.

A glue that is designed to weld plastic or acrylic together is the way to go. I would skip PVC glues even though they may look like they are softening the ABS. Plain old styrene cement for plastc models may work, but I use an acrylic "welding" glue that works great.

Acetone is fine for ABS to ABS if the fit is extremely good, but ABS to wood does not go all that well with just acetone unless you make a primer up out of acetone and ABS and get it very well stuck to the wood. Not the way to go in my opoinion.

For filling holes, you can make a slurry (is that a word?) of ABS and the glue. Mixing scraped bits of white and cream ABS can match lots of bindings.

For replacing sections, a scarf joint can sometimes look OK, but I have never been happy with any section replacemnts I have done - maybe I'm a low-talent binding scarfer though.

JD mentions the added thrill of chipped finish next to the binding. On a natural or light colored finish this is a mere disaster - but on a sunburst, dark transparent, or just plain dark finish this is a life-altering experience.

More thrills:

Binding is sometimes masked during the color coats (especially on the sides) but very often it is not masked, but rather scraped after the color is shot on. This makes for another complication since there is sometimes a small step down at the edge of the scraped binding. More thrills and spills in fixing the finish.

Nitro can be especially maddening to fix with deep chips since the new nitro swells the old nitro temporarily - which makes getting a final level finish very tricky. It is not unreasonable to say that it can take a good 6 months (or more) to let the solvent escape enough to level a new finish next to an old finish.

Laquer sticks that you use with an alchohol lamp can seem very old fashioned, but they have their place in this sort of situation. (I can not find any of my old laquer sticks, maybe they are behind the butter churn in the attic.)

New binding on a new guitar is much easier. The guides that are now available for routers make it pretty hard to make a mess (as I cringe in distant memory of my home-brew guide slipping and sending the router into evil territory,...)

Replacing an entire binding can be easier than patching - and with a little luck and good router direction and speed choices, a full replacement can even be done with limited finish trouble.

In my opinion almost all guitar work can be done at home with very simple tools - but maybe binding repair starts to get into an area that can be very frustrasting and maybe not worth the home-brew experience. It can be a hit or miss thing, sort of like home apendectomies.

All in my opinion.

CP
- Rated: 5 ↑
May 14, 2008 6:41 p.m. Paddywagon:

Wow...Thanks for the info! That's what I'm talkin' about! I appreciate your posts very much.
- Rated: 30 ↑
May 14, 2008 10:41 p.m. JackDaniels:

Well Chris you once again nailed it.

I have been working on Andy's rebind for several weeks. The binding went on fine, but each time I spray nitro on the binding a few days later it shrinks and leaves a ledge. I keep trying to build up nitro, but it takes a lot of layers to build up even a little bit. I think I am close now and will give the entire guitar one final overspray, but damn! Its a lot of work to save the old finish. I almost wish I would have just did the refin.

I can't imagine trying to match a two-tone cruiser green annie top....or a Jag tan.

JD
- Rated: 21 ↑
May 15, 2008 5:50 a.m. chrisp:

With the too-long post I forgot to ask if the binding is celluloid?

I think this is unlikely, but always possible.

As far as I can guess, so called 'Ivoroid' binding is still made from celluloid. This is not the cream binding like on a Les Paul, but the yellower bnding with the streaks in it.

On newer celluloid you can confirm the material by lightly scraping and then smell for camphor.

EDIT: The suspense was killing me, so I just checked the ivoroid binding on my Eastman 805CE - yep celluloid. The slightest scrape on the face of the FB binding gives off camphor. So I need to plan to have the binding shrink and pull away from the waist on the body sometime around my 65th birthday.

But again, I am assuming the binding on your guitar is ABS.

CP
- Rated: 5 ↑
May 15, 2008 8:09 a.m. Paddywagon:

It's the binding on a '68 Gretsch Black Hawk. I decided to repurchase the one I sent back because of the binding. I'm not sure what the material is, but whatever Gretsch was using in the late 60's was trouble.

Here is another question:

Has anyone tried anything to fix binding discoloration? I think it's the brown discoloration that bothers me most. I can't really see using paint (?)...Maybe like Crest White Strips for guitars (!) I can't see changing the discoloration chemically, but possibly some sort of cover up...

Thanks...you guys are very helpful.
- Rated: 21 ↑
May 15, 2008 9:24 a.m. chrisp:

[Paddywagon]>>>it's the brown discoloration that bothers me most.

I'd say that's true for most of life's situations.

A pic of the binding and the discoloration would be really helpful.

Also lay a $20.00 bill next to binding in the pic (the new ones are even better for this). This sounds silly, but is really helpful in seeing accurate colors in the white/off-white range on various monitors. Just a few square inches of the bill is enough.

You can try chlorine bleach and hydrogen peroxide on the stains if you use a small paint brush abd keep it from dripping all over the place. But this is no more than a shot in the dark for the stains. I'd be surprised if it worked, but the risks are fairly low, so what the heck.

Even solid white ABS is a bit transluscent. So paint can look way-awful as a fix unless you feather it in very carefully.

ABS laminates very well with acetone. So you could also scrape the stains out then laminate on some new material. Wait a whole day, then cut-sand-scrape the new layer down to match the old surface. The big danger here is getting acetone on the finish. Acetone takes quite a while to damage most catalyzed poly-whatever finishes, but eats up nitrocelulose instantly.

While I have not been too happy with scarfed in binding patches, the ol' scrape-n'-layer fix has worked pretty well for me.

Even a bit of acetone still in the ABS will make it soft and also a bit swolen - so wait for it to really dry.

Again, this sort of solvent-ridden cosmetic work carries high chances for home-brew troubles.

CP
- Rated: 14 ↑
May 15, 2008 9:42 a.m. riz:

Why would ABS binding be rotting? It's not at all improbable that a 40 year old guitar has celluloid binding.
- Rated: 21 ↑
May 15, 2008 10:20 a.m. chrisp:

It is not clear to me that P'Wag has actual breakdown of the binding?

Agreed that it can well be celluloid and I am wrong to suggest that it must be ABS.

I am not sure how celluloid goes to pieces. It may well actually rot, but I suspect it just breaks down (vs. some sort of baterial somethingorother).

ABS can get very brittle and seem like plain old S (styrene) when it is old. But I do not recall seeing it shrink the way celluloid can.

I do not think you can get a very strong camphor smell off old celluloid the way you can off new - but this may be wrong.

A pic would be fun.

CP
- Rated: 67 ↑
May 15, 2008 5:11 p.m. Antik:

I'll wager it might look like the ones in this photos. Late '67 / early '68 models seem to have been especially susceptible to binding cracking and getting that brown color around the cracks.
- Rated: 5 ↑
May 15, 2008 5:45 p.m. Paddywagon:

FWIW, Those pics are exactly the deterioration problems I'm having. I do have pics of my damage (but not sure how to post), but the ones Antik posted are quite similar. I think if I could remove the brown-ness on the binding I would feel much better. Would hydrogen peroxide really make a difference? That seems like something I could attempt without ruining too much!

I see the camera icon, I will attempt a pic...
- Rated: 5 ↑
May 15, 2008 5:57 p.m. Paddywagon:

This post has been deleted
- Rated: 5 ↑
May 15, 2008 6:09 p.m. Paddywagon:

Here we go...
- Rated: 5 ↑
May 15, 2008 6:13 p.m. Paddywagon:

Here's the front view...'68 Gretsch Black Hawk 6100
- Rated: 21 ↑
May 15, 2008 6:44 p.m. chrisp:

Hey PW,

I mentioned the Hydrogen Peroxide only because it is cheap, easy, and very unlikely to do any harm.

I have no idea if it will help or not; I have never used it in this sort of application.

Now on the pics:

Are the cracks in the binding itself or in the finish over the binding?

If you take off the tailpiece or the pickguard bracket, you can try scraping the binding that is hidden under there.

If you scrape off the finish is the binding clean, or is it cracked?

If you lightly scrape the binding does it smell like styrene or like camphor?

If this is all too silly, just let me know. But it is interesting to confirm if the evil is in the finish or the binding.

Celluloid is surprisingly like Nitrocelulose lacquer and subject to shrinking and cracking over time. ABS will harden some and will crack, but not usually with such high frequency as in your pic.

If the binding is ABS it looks likely that the cracks are in the finish - but can't tell from the pics.

Good ping pong balls will gove off a camphor smell if you break it open or scrape it. Your kid's old plastic model of the USS Enterprise (or your plastic model of Wonder Woman) will smell like styrene if scraped.

Wowie, great guitar and well worth sorting out 'till you are happy with it.

CP
- Rated: 5 ↑
May 16, 2008 7:29 a.m. Paddywagon:

Thanks, Chrisp...next time I get a chance I'll see how the binding/finish is under the tailpiece. I just got the guitar back a couple of days ago, so I need to post another thread on setup issues!